Open Source Revolution: A Conversation w/ Carvel Baus


Open source is used in way more things than people realize.

After all, with so much open source code available to power basic functionalities, it’s easier for developers to just plug it iRn and move on to other things that are more core to their business.

In an open source world, you can really do anything you want as long as the code is there.

In this episode, Carvel Baus, Senior Consultant & Architect at Shadow-Soft, explains the value of open source technology and interesting ways it’s being used in the industry today.

We discuss:

  • His early experiences using Unix and Java
  • Why he became fascinated with open source
  • Interesting use cases for OpenShift
  • Why data centers will be shifting to Arm technology
  • Advice for up-and-coming engineers

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You are listening to application modernization,a show that spotlights the forward thinking leaders of Highgro software companies. From scalingapplications and accelerating time to market to avoiding expensive license and costs, we discusshow you can innovate with new technology and forward thinking processes and save some cashin the process. Let's get into it. Thanks for listening to the application Monertizationpodcasts presented by shadow soft. I'm your host, Nick Markarelli. Todaywe spoke to senior technical consultant Carbo boss on the shadows soft consulting team.Carvel's had a wide range of experience from, you know, working at low leveltechnology, you know, down at the machine level, to get intosoftware architecture, defense contracting, working for some of the most admired companies andopen source, and we're lucky to have them on our team today. Sowe spend some time catching up, talking about tech trends, talking about someof the insights of the past and how that's influenced some of his decision makingas an engineer. I think it's a really interesting conversation amongst friends and hopefullyyou, the listener, will really enjoy it and, as always, thanksto red half for supporting the application modernization podcast. Hey Carvel, thanks forjoining us today. Excited to talk to you. Go Nick, thank thanksfor having me. Good to be here, very good. So we've known eachother a while, so this will be a fun conversation. Little bita number of years at this point, but you've recently rejoined our team atchat USOFT and after making a couple of stops some really interesting places. SoI thought I might be interesting to talk through some of that, some ofthat experience and some of the things you've done in the past. And youknow, you've got a great general background and open source, so good fitfor what we're doing here on the podcast. Yeah, be glad too. Well, yeah, there's a lot. I've done quite a few things.I'll see if I can see condense this in to the shorter version right.Well, I'll hope. I'll help guide you with that. So why don't? Why don't we? Why don't we let our listeners, are many,many hundreds of thousands of listeners hopefully here, a little bit about your background,maybe what got your start in, you know, in Tach and youknow wherever you want to take us and we'll just dig in from there.Sure, sure, so I guess I got a computer engineering degree from NCState University and that's it. Wasn't a common degree. I don't know ifthat's more common now, but it's basically a hybrid between doing electrical engineering andthen doing programming and like back when I lived in Rolla, if you wantedto do just peer program you went to you and see and you know youdid. Oh, if you want to do different types of engineer, youwent to see state. So I pick kind of in the middle of theroad degree that would let me go either hardware or software, and ultimately it. You know, all my endeavors led me through the software path over hardwaremost of the time, so went there. Cool thing is one of my instructors. Some of the listeners may know them as a gentleman by the nameof Marshall Brain and if you don't know him, he was guy who createdhow stuff works, that website that was a a sold to the discovery channel. Is Really Cool. Marshall's a great guy and I mean just a phenomenalinstructor. I mean he really knew his stuff. I don't know that hecan would have considered me a great student, but it was it was a certainlyenjoy to have him as an instructor. So that was kind of cool.That's a that's a pretty cool experience when you know one of your professorsis, you know, someone who's, you know, done something in industryand is wellknown. You don't always get that now you don't eat and youdon't realize what you have until like, you know, down the road.Right now. It's very being a college student in the days like, youknow, hey, he's just another instructor and he was very casual, kindof he wore blue jeans and, you know, just a button down shirtand he's just kind of your organic professor...

...type, you know, very,very personable. You know, just another normal guy there, but very smart, personable guy. So I remember the course being a lot of fun andit was hard and he certainly made his students work for their degree. Sothat was a good thing. Gotcha. All right. So NC state,which obviously has some interesting ties to run at in general, but we couldprobably talk about that later. No, sure, yeah, but yeah,tell us where you jump from there, I mean got in the industry,I assume. Yeah, yeah, and the industry actually got into industry wallsat NC state. I joined their cooperative education program, which is you goand work for a company while you're a student, you know, so theyget labor cheap and then you learn, you know, how to the industryreally run. So my coop experience wasn't two different groups that IBM there inResearch Triangle Park. My first one was performance analysis of IB in mainframe stuff. So I wrote code and WREX language, which most people don't know, anddid that for a bit. And then I also worked in a hardwaregroup testing device drivers that connected x at six computers into mainframes. So thatwas kind of cool. So, like you know, out of the gateI got into some really, you know, heavy duty industrial type stuff, andso that was a great experience. And during that time, you know, you know, I think you know everybody, every kid in high schoolor college order has a dream. You know, they plan out their careerright. So I was like in high schools, like I'm going to workfor IBM, I'm going to, you know, I get my degree,go work for IBM, I'm going to retire from my BM, I'll geta master's degree from Georgia Tech. I think one of those things actually happened. My degree from NC state. You know, while I was coopping,IBM went through. They're like four hundred thousand people and they went through.You know, it is kind of like that error where they were pulling backand they started just, you know, cutting loose people and the stuff.So they went from like four hundre of thousand people to two hundred thousand insideof a couple years. So I figured my bet there wasn't going to beall that great, but the experience itself was was really good. Gotcha.So you're doing work there and then what was your first, I guess,experience, you know, outside of the educational system, when maybe a kickstart your career where I know you did some like federal contracting thing. Wasthat later or oh yeah, that was much lavorish later. There we go. Yeah, so research triangle park right outside of where and see state is. There was a lot of telephony stuff going on, hmm, like andof college interesting looking at degree or degrees, looking at jobs and stuff. Youbasically either worked on windows machines or you worked on UNIX. I meanthat was all there was right like you're going one way or the other.So there's a lot of UNIX stuff going on and that just really interested mejust from everything else I'd worked on, you know, in school. Iwas like, Oh yeah, UNIX is a really cool thing to get into, so let's let's let's jump into that real quick. So yeah, becauseyou know, UNIX is, you know, predecessor to Linux and macoss and allthat fun stuff that, you know, people have huge preferences around. Sowhat what about working on a lit a UNIX platform, drove you comparedto Windows? Well, that's a great question. You know something about thecommand line in you know that since I don't know, maybe it's you know, maybe I'm one of those people, but that sense of power you getfrom being on a type something and you know, make something happen right andinstead of just like, you know, clicking and pointing it stuff, becauseI think at that time windows, Ninety five window windows one was like thestuff and then ninety five was coming out and, you know, it wasjust like okay, I could click the point at times where I can sithere and do really cool stuff on the command line and I think, youknow, just the ability to explore and get lost in the command line justappealed to me. You know, it was just kind of a fun placeto play. Yeah, that's interesting because I remember when windows three one cameout, and we're boring younger people here probably, but I thought it wasreally cool because I had a you know, I hadn't IBM based like DOS system, like for our family computer,...

...and not everybody had a computer backthen and it was I was used to, you know, booting up and,you know giving it a command to go to a directory and launch,you know, some horrible application like organ trail or a math calculator, youknow, something something like that. You know, I remember when my Granddad, he was actually the first one to get into computers because he had amath degree from Penn state and he he bought one and then he somehow,I maybe programmed it, maybe it was off the shelf, but he builtlike an interface menu on top of doss so like if I wanted to launchsome game, it would the computer would launch in that I'd Hit d youknow, would launch me directly into the game. I don't remember what thatwas exactly, but I thought it was really cool and I didn't have iton mine. So it was way ahead of his time. Anyway, soundslike it. That's a little rabbit trail right there. But anyway, backto you. Yeah, so, yeah, UNIX was just kind of a funplace to play and, you know, pack then like my first real job, I guess, was that a company called Fujitsu, Fujitsu Network Communications, and I worked with suns spark systems, and this is really where I gotto cut my teeth on UNIX itself, because, you know, Sun rancelayers, right, they're operating system in the piece of hardware I gotto play with and take care of was this fault tolerant thing called a faulttolerance spark, you know, which was basically, you know, a faulttolerant blade server of Sun Hardware, and it was used to run a telcoswitch. And this is part of that telephony how I got into telephony.So is an ATM switch, not like you know the ATM where you getmoney out of, but asynchrogenous transfer mode, right, which was the thing backthen that telecommunications was into. So, you know, I spent some timeplaying with that and then that moved me into my next Gig, whichwould have been at a company called TECLEC, which is now owned by Oracle,but techlic there weren't a household name, but basically, if you made aphone call, a piece of techlec hardware was doing something to help setup, tear down or make that phone call happen. Even in cellular.You know, they pretty much had like seventy percent of the market for thattype of year and it was all UNIX or Linux base type things. Andthey're we're actually getting a programming boards directly. So some of my double lead degreewas coming into play, you know, and all the switching stuff and allthat. So that was really cool. I mean it's just, you know, like a kid in a candy shop kind of, you know,sitting there and I'm working right next to the hardware programming, which is somethingyou don't really see a lot of today. You know, the industry is certainlychanged a lot since that time. Gotcha. Yeah, that's that's funny. We could probably do an episode of this podcast just talking about all theold things that we intersected at different times, which would actually be kind of fun. Is One when I started out in Tach, you know, onthe non engineering side, the sales and administrative side, the sun line beforewas perspout workle was actually the product line that I supported so well. NowI didn't know anything about the operating system or why it mattered or anything likethat. I just knew that people wanted to buy these memory boards in thesemidrange sun servers and they would travel all over the world to come come bythem. It was kind of crazy and they would sell for hundreds of thousandsof dollars piece of supply. Yeah, around them. So it's kind ofinteresting. But it was was kind of interesting things I you know, youlearned stuff as you get into these companies and you know code places and stuffand working for fugets. So I got to go to Japan for on acouple different trips and that was just that was really cool. You know,it's just a lot of fun. I was over there for several weeks andin Japan Fujitsu was basically the Sun Redistributor, but you wouldn't see sun on abox, you'd see Fujitsu same box, right, so they'd hite label itbasically for the region. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was.It was really cool. So, you...

...know, I got to play withall that stuff and because see the world is just a you know, greatopportunity. You know, what a great place to start a career. Youknow, yeah, absolutely. So from there, if we we jump throughthe major milestones of the places you've been hopping, through the cool things thatyou've worked on, things like that. Yeah, so after figets, whocame techlec, and they're the coolest stuff I work on. was actually doingtelephony protocols, so I was working on selear spark boxes. Doing this was, you know, entering the IP telephony era, and so I was basicallytaking packets coming off the wire, doing something with them and then pushing themback out, you know, kind of converting signaling system messages and stuff likethat. So that was very low level coding. You know, I wasdown and see working directly with the OS and system calls and all that,you know, and it's just, you know, a lot of fun.So that was tech LoC and then the long came thecom bust, and thenbasically, you know, all that work kind of dried up for a lotof people, including myself, and that's where I made a transition into defensecontracting, which you mentioned earlier. Right. I moved on from Raleigh, endedup in the town where pretty much all there was there was defense contracting, and so for the next seven or eight years I would be, youknow. You know defense contracting. You know, every job's about a yearand maybe two if you're lucky, kind of thing, right. So,you know, you just go from contract to contract, working on various things, whatever you know there is at the time. And so that's where WHO'sinteresting is. I learned about Java when I was working in F U Jitsubecause we were sunshop and one of the guys came back from a Sun Conferenceand he is man there's this cool new language out where you can basically justcompile it once in it all run on anything. You can run it anywhere, right, you know the right wants run anywhere. Right. Thank you. You remember that? Way Back then? Yeah, and we were CC plusplus shop and you know, targeted compiling. It's like if you're ona this type of spark, you got to compile it, if you're onanother box, you got to compile it again, you know, so thatyou know, there were some fascination about this ability to compile once and thentake it and run it, run the jar anywhere, you know, kindof thing. So so in defense contractings where I really started getting in theJava, because that's at that point that's what everybody started was using at thetime for Web APPs and you know, all that kind of stuff rights.So that was my foray into the Java world. Very different from CC plusplus, different type of mindset, different type of work. Thank Gotcha.And then you ended up eventually red hat at some point doing consulting and yeah, so, yeah, so there's a couple things in here. So defensecontracting doing a lot of Java and I was getting bored with it because Iwas a sea guy, you know, doing CC plus plus. You know, you know Java. You know when it would blow up, you getto stack trace like a mile high, right and you got to go andfish through the one or two lines of you know, the figure out whereit really went wrong, right, because there's all this stuff, right,you know, being CC plus plus. It blows up, you get thisone line that's a segmentation fault and then that's it, you know, andyou got to go hunt for it. So it was a very different worldand I was, you know, I just kind of wasn't really into it. So I learned about this language called Scala, about mid career and defensecontracting, which was another language to run on the JVM, and so Ikind of got my teeth wet with that. tried to push it because I wasgetting bored with job and that didn't really go anywhere. And then that'sabout when, you know, I'd had enough. I decided to become aconsultant and I joined a group called a Mentra, which was in the processof being acquired by Red Hat. So I became a red hat consultant throughthat association. Yeah, really, I mean I remember those days when thementor was, you know, kind of merging into not merging there required,but you know, kind of combining into red at and the worldflow really expandedred hats ability to do services for customers and that was that was a veryexciting time. And Open source, you...

...know, and I think that's Iknow you're a big proponent of open source. You talk about it all the timeand I know you like to like to build things and you believe inthe community. So you know through all that. Why don't you share whatwhat you think is the most important thing about open source for you, likehow it made an impact for you and why you're fascinated by it? Oh, you know, I think before I got an open source I didn't reallyunderstand it. Once I was in it, made a whole lot more sense.But I think, you know, Opportunity that open source provides is probablythe biggest thing, because it's like, you know, in an open sourceworld, you know, you can do really anything you want to. Imean the codes there, you can go work on anything. You don't haveto be a part of this particular company. You know, if you know pieceof software appeals to you, you just go pull the code, startworking on it. You know, do a pull request, hopefully gets in, you know, where you get some comments and you know, you addsome usefulness to that piece of code and you know, maybe start work onthat project full time or something. But you can have ultimately, just pickand choose what you want to do, the things that you enjoy, andthere's just having that ability and that opportunity, I think, is probably one ofthe greatest things open source provides for any development rights. It's actually moreand that's it. That's interesting. That's a perspective I haven't heard before.So for you it's more about the called the artistic license to go apply byyour thoughts and your creativity to something without having to be put on a committeeand, you know, get approval from a manager. Open source allows youto just go attack whatever's out there and kind of, you know, fulfillthat portion of creativity in you. Yeah, I mean you can blaze your owntrail. There's not a company that's sitting there going, Oh, youcan only work on this, if you can only work on that, andmaybe that is the day job, right. I mean maybe you during the dayyou do X, Y Z, and hopefully you enjoy it, butat the end of the day you're probably doing it as a close hourse projectand you know they're going to turn a big money on it and all that, and all that's find it well, I mean no issues with it,but you know, open sources where you can really no matter who you areor the level experience you have, you can do whatever you want. Andobviously there may be a learning curve, there may be you know, youhave to put in the time to become good at it, but the barrierto entry and open source is very low, you know, and for anyone Ithink that's a great thing. Yeah, sounds like desire. It's the barrierto entry. Yeah, it's kind of like music, yes, whichI know, I know we share a common bonder on that, but youknow, when you start playing music, not very good, you're just puttingin time, right, you're learning to do things. So yeah, andwhen you become good enough you can join the band, right band, youknow, and then you all share the common interest of pursuing that particular pieceof music. So, yeah, I hadn't all of that parallel, butyes, it's very much like that. Yeah, that's that's the easiest parallelfor me for sure. You know, I was twelve and all my friendswere playing music and I was like, I want to do that. SoI spent two years trying to learn how to play guitar and I never gotto play with those guys, but I got to play with my own guys, other, other, other guys that were like, we started doing thisa year ago too, and then, you know, it's born. Yeah, yess, open source software can be the same way. They can andyou you may not. You may have an idea where it's going to lead. Like music, you know, hey, my friends, but you end upwith a totally different group and it's great, you know, but youknow that that ability to pursue it really lose you to the next level downthe road. You just may not know exactly where they sure? Now,I know you're an Avid Guitar Player and Music Lover. Have you seen anypart of you know, the concept of open source infiltrate the music industry froma gear software perspective or I figured you,...

...of all people, might know mightbe tracking to something like that. Yeah, there's stuff out there.I mean you have your commercial apps which you know for Daw thing like that. Those tend to be very well polished and you know, and if yourgoals to write music, you might lean towards that. You know, becauseopen source stuff, you know, they can be any various stages right.But there's one piece in particular I got used to create a drum track forits this project called hydrogen and it's the hydrogen drum machine and you know,I found it download. It's done and CCPLUS class. I considered contributing itto it but just haven't found or made the time for that yet. ButI created this drum track out of it and I couldn't create the drum trackanywhere else. Just the way the hydrogen did what it did made it veryeasy and simple and it was like, Oh, this is awesome, Igotta corporate this into a song. You know, kind of think. Sothat has certainly been, you know, a musical aspect for open sources kickedin for me. Yeah, I've been surprised in the music industry it's takena while for it to take off. I think, like the rest ofconsumerism, you know, I think we're heading into the golden age of ofgear right now. There's just so much, so much unique and artistic view ofwe're nerding now a little bit and that's okay. Luckily I'm the hostof this thing. But, Um, it's interesting to see how consumer gear, I mean even looking back to sound boards, I mean digital soundboards werelike not really a thing fifteen years ago. This hall analog right, and ifit was digital it was kind of not very reliable. You know,now everything's digital. A whole world's digital. So you know, it's interesting tosee how software is really just made. That a huge change and everything thatwe do from hobbies to, you know, our refrigerator telling us itneeds a filter and calling out to see song and then Samsung sends us afilter automatically because we clicked yes somewhere. So it's pretty well. Oh Yeah, yeah, open source is probably in a lot more stuff than people realize. I mean everything, because if there's basic functionality that you're trying to dothat you have to do, say like the Samsung refrigerator right, like it'sgot to talk to a network somewhere. Well, there's a piece of opensource code that will do that and rather than reinvent the wheel and provided thelicense works or it, you know, it just makes sense to go grabthat piece of open source, you know, get it, make it work inthe fridge and then move on and, you know, do this stuff that'scord of the business. No, totally, absolutely makes sense. Noweverything's connected to everything, so I'm sure there's all types of open source stuffeverywhere facilitating that. Yeah, so prior to you join in our team youhad spent a number of years at red hat working on open shift, specificallyin what we'd call, I guess, other architectures. Is that? Isthat the right way to describe that? Multi architecture? Is the multi isthe terminology. Thanks. Tell us a little bit about that, you know, whatever you can. Obviously. Oh sure, yeah, it was.That's an interesting group. They basically work with all the all of the redhat products for any non ex adsix architecture. So it could have been jaboss,could have been, you know, brms, anything. The goal ofthat team is to take, you know, existing thing that's known to run onyou know, x Atsix, existing product, and make sure that it'savailable for other architectures. So some of the architectures we did with. Abig one is the IBMZ, you know, traditionally called mainframe, but it's nowreferred to as Z, IBM power, and then more recently arm stuff foropen shift specifically. So where I work mostly was open shift on IBMZ, occasionally on power, but mostly Z, and then tail end of my timethere was on arm related endeavors, which was really cool. I gotto do some eat stuff. Gotcha. Well, that's my I. Youknow, red hats always seem to have a kind of a path, analternative path for you know, nonext six right like wells always run on power. That's that's been an offering for as...

...long as I remember. So we'regoing back, you know, twelve years at this point, but it's interestingto see, you know, the consideration of what that looks like for openshift. Right opens just this modern way to develop applications and have, youknow, the new verrsual data center kind of, you know, in concepts. There's lots of ways, I think people describe it, but you know, being able to put it on, you know, on power or Z. it's kind of a interesting use case, probably one I don't understand very wellthat you do. Yeah, there's a couple different, you know,things I think customers are doing with it. One in particular is private cloud.You know, so if you have like a shop that has a Z, and we'll just talk about the Z for a second, you know,you have that skill sets. It's a very specific skill set and if youwant to do a private cloud and house, it kind of makes sense to makeuse of the hardware in the skill sets you have. So open shiftall the Z for a private internal cloud is, you know, it's justa sensible step forward and so you don't have to completely replace everything you know. And you know the Z's use typically and you know volume transaction processing andthings like that, and open shift really brings another use case for it,especially to you know, there are shops out there that they have the Z, they love the Z. that's what they want to use. It's likehey, we want to do containers. How do we do this? Onthe Z. It's like, okay, well, open shift all the Zand you can do containers, you know, and stretching that a little bit further. You know, historically IBM mainframes, the eye systems and all that runcobal. You know, a lot of it's written in coball. Soright, you know, without making a worrying thing too long, you know, hurt too bad. COBAL and a container is an interesting use case.It's not one I specifically worked with, but you know, those are somethings that I know I be ams looking at doing. They've talked about itand some published articles and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, it's really marrying, you know, what some would consider the old worldwith the new, you know, and where those two worlds come together asa very interesting kind of place Gotchas. So so basically the cont the usecase there, and I guess from a business perspective, is extending the lifeand skills of what you already have. Right, you've already you've already spentmoney on, you know, your IBMZ and you have people that have specificskills around that. So instead of ripping it out and completely retraining, it'slike adding another layer of modernization. To what you could possibly be doing dayto day. Yes, that be a good way to describe that. Yeah, I think so. And you know, and there's there's more. There's,you know, there's, as I mentioned, Z's are used for typically, if you look at like anything like a credit card transactions, historically that'sbeen done on the main frame with cobal because that code has been proven,it works, it handles that type of thing very, you know, verywell, very efficiently, very fast, and there's never really been a needto change that. So you know, anywhere where that type of scenario andyou want to bring that more into the modern world, you know, containerson a Z would tend to make a lot of sense. Now, specificallyhow that will play out, you know, I don't know. I mean that'slike a domain that I haven't dug deeply into, so I don't fullyunderstand all those use cases, but I can certainly see, you know,you know, things happening there and then even extending some of the more specificz hardware, things like it's security capabilities, encryption, you know, all thosethings into the container level on the Z. You know, if youwant to let leverage that in a container, then obviously you need the z youneed. It's hardware, because I be M Z's are they're very welldone, they're very robust. They they don't fail on you, you know, they're really designed not to. So I mean they just keep running.You know, it's kind of like a diesel engine. It just simply keepgoing. And so if you have that and you want to maintain those capabilitiesand bring containers of the picture, then you know, there's lots of opportunityof things that happen there. Gotcha. That's interesting. I'm learning a lovelearning new things, especially from you.

So I like I like to askeverybody this question. I'm sure you have a thoughtful response around this. Whatare some technology trends you're seeing out there right now, and what is onethat you're really excited to watch evolve? Whether it succeeds or not doesn't reallymatter, but like what's speaking your interest today. The big one for meis arm, you know, because I've gotten play a little bit in thatarena and I think, you know, I think arm is going to be, you know, maybe not specifically for the developer yet, but in theindustry it's really going to shift the industry and shake things up. So ifyou look at like what's the best way to describe this? Well, helphelp our listeners out with like if they're not familiar with arm, can yougive like a two sentence like this is what this is the high level likewhy they would care? Yeah, we'll do my best. So, yeah, arm is a is a company that licenses process or designs and so likethe big thing in the news in the last year to is apple. Therenew in one chip as an arm chip, and so it was designed by arm. In then a company licenses it and makes it, builds the processorto arm specifications and arm rubber stamps at and all that and says yes,go forth and do great things with your new arm process. And kind ofto give you an idea, I have h have like three boxes here atmy desk, all right, three different ones. And so in the ifwe can get a little nerdy, sure, like my main COUBERNETTI's development boxes.This is my heavy lifter because it has a hundred and twenty eight gigsof Ram. So if I needed to spin up an open shift cluster andKvm, I could do this on this box because I had the memory todo it. It has an Intel core. I seven seventy twenty X. it'slike three point six GIGA hurts chip. It has eight cores, sixteen threads. So it's hyper threaded right, traditional, right until technology. It'slike the pass mark CPU benchmark score on that things about Seventeenzero. All right, the higher numbers the better. So and I also have an am drise and nine fifty nine hundred eighth X. it's the their nine series laptop chip. It's three point three GIGGA hurts right. It's benchmark is about twentythreezero. So faster than the I seven, right, right, bigger, muchmore horse power. It's also a core, sixteen threads. So here'san interesting thing. The Intel I seven is a hundred and forty watts ofheat consumption or power to sipation. Right, takes a hundred forty Wat's roughly torun it. You know, however you want to call that, theAMD rising in my laptop is forty five watts. So it's like, hmm, like a fourth almost them, doing my math correctly, or maybe athird of the Intel's right. That seems significant, you know, and you'dabsolutely expect that for laptop. It's also the faster processor. You know,it's newer, you know, smaller, you know, process eyes, allthat kind of stuff. If you really get into a knee, into thegeeky hardware stuff, estimated yearly running cost on the Intel is about twenty fivedollars, you know, for that processor. If it's running, you have spentabout twenty five bucks on it. The risings eight dollars, right,so lot, a lot cheaper, a lot faster. Right. So there'sthe difference. That the traditional lead six processes. Now I also have amacbook air and one which, you know, I'm doing this podcast through. Some too. Yeah, cool, I'm with you. Yeah, sothat's specs on this little puppy, and this is where arm really starts tomake sense. So it's in the CPU bench mark. It's the slowest ofthem. It's Fifteenzero, right, which is just a little bit less thanthe Intel at seventeen thousands three point two giga hurts. It's a core eightthreads, not hyper threaded, right, right. It uses fifteen watts.Right, yeah, I see where you're going there. Yeah, there's there'san efficiency thing here. Yes, so it's about, you know, alittle bit less than the Intel, but it uses a ten of the powerto accomplish it. Yeah, that's okay.

Right. So that that's a goodexplanation, I think, for our audience. You know, why doesthat matter? Because I think unless you're willing to go to twenty five pagesdeep on the Internet, and he didn't. You know, maybe you have asimilar cognitive ability as I do, which is mostly sales technical. Ineed someone to explain that to me. So right, that's really helpful.Here's here's where it really plays out. So as a developer, why wouldI care? I mean it's you know, it's these less power. So youknow, I can watch movies for eight hours on my you know,my my back, but you know are I can only do that for twohours on the rising and my big box it. You know, it needsto be plugged in all the time. In the data center. If youlook at a processor and let's assume that the M one is equivalent to theice seven, you know they're close, right, they're not too far.All the ones using one ten the power consumption. Maybe we say one tento cooling. You know all that. If you look at that for datacenter, that's really where arm makes the difference and you see Amazons. It'sreal dollars. Right. Yes, real doubt. Oh, the the cost, the yearly cost of the M one is two dollars, two and ahalf, compared to twenty five for the Intel. Yeah, that's that's kindof a big deal. So here's why the industry shift scale. Yeah,yeah, this is why the industry shifting, because it's a tenth to cost fora process or similar in performance to some equivalent Intel, you know,to run it. And so we're going to start seeing data centers really shiftingover to having a lot more arm in them and it and companies can't keepup. Like I tried to buy when I was doing my k at RedHat. I tried to buy an arm box that wasn't apple, because Iwant to put I couldn't do it because all the arm companies who are producingarm chips had shifted their focus entirely to dager center chip production. Right.So for the INCONSUMER, we won't see the arm chips. You know,you'll see it in the apple. We're going to start seeing it trickle intolike what would traditionally be considered an Intel PC, like PC's right, notapple, right, laptops. You know, we'll start to see that here soon, but right now apple makes their own chips, so they can dowhatever they want. They're going to be putting them out and they're really goingto be ahead of the market. And and then once the data centers getcaught up, then we'll start seeing arm chips, more so in laptops.You know. They're already in phones, you know. So all these worldsare going to start coming together and that's why arms going to be huge.It's just they're going to be everywhere, you know. So I'm excited aboutthat just for, you know, everything it means for the ecosystem right now. I'm excited about it because I understand it. Yeah, thank you forthat. So another fun one. What is it? What is a technologytrend that you thought was going to change the world but then didn't hm inmy I'll give you mine. Okay, I thought open stack was going tobe a game changer. Well, interesting and for some, but you know, maybe the telco industry it was, but like if we're talking pervasily acrosstechnology, it was probably the most hyped thing I'd ever seen. That didn'tquite materialize in the way we thought it would. So That's mine. ButI was curious if you have one of those? I've kind of got two. So one one would have been arm. You know, it's just a matterwhen you ask the question, because apple with the M one was theshot heard around the world for the shift in the industry. So until appledid that, arm was kind of like the little processor that could write.Nobody was really paying a lot of tensions. It's great for a phone, youmight have it in a chrome book, but putting it in a PC,yeah, you know, it's just not there. So apple did thatin that really change that dynamic. The other one is this thing that youwas called Soa. Okay, you know, it will be good. Yeah.So, I mean when I was in defense contracting, so was allthe rage. I mean I I don't know how much money was dumped intosoa and the promise of, you know,... the service oriented architecture right andbring corporate stuff all under this, you know, and there's a lotof work around. That's a lot of what I did and you know,it just never really came to fruition. Think the vision that people had forso it was ultimately what Coubernetti's would be would become right. But so,you know, so it is one of those things where, you know,at least based on the hype, I was like, Oh, yeah,this is gonna you know, this is the stuff, man, didn't reallyhappen. It was kind of a like a first iteration to what we callmicro services today. Yeah, and how we man Inter that with Gubernetti's itwas I remember that time and it was you know, I just I'm notsure organizations were just bought in on the concept yet, you know, likethey're like it was the new hot thing, but they're like it seems hard,and that's, I think, most things in technology right now. Yeah, there's this huge expectation of, you know, this could change everything,but then you get down to, you know, building a plan and ateam and allocating budget and you go, wow, it's probably easier just todo what we have been doing until somebody else produced this out, like Netflixor Google or, yeah, somebody bigger, right. So that's that's interesting.I wouldn't have guessed that, but given your background and having known youa wall, I probably should have. Should have known. Yeah, youknow, I think all the I will call it hard infrastructure that was requiredmade it difficult because, you know, you had to stand up servers youhad to wire in the network, Cisco Switches, you know, what haveyou, and Coubernetti's is really virtual infrastructure right, and I mean it reallymade that whole thing a lot easier. Sure you know so I think thatmaybe the most significant difference there. So, finally, any advice you would havefor young and upcoming engineers? You know, I it's a great question. You know, I think based on my experience, I'd say you reallyhave to manage your career. You know, I think, like I mentioned earlier, or my goal and high school or college was go work for IBM, retire from my BM. You know, I had it all played out right, but then right if events happened, and that, you know, obviouslydidn't happen. You know, I've had throughout my career I've had topivot a number of times, defense contracting especially, because contracts they just comeand go for no real reason. You know, you you one day youhave a job, next day you don't. Got To go fund a new contract, and so there's always that pivot you have to do. And soI'd say the part of managing your career is you have to be always kindof know what's next for you. Like I'd mentioned, I'd gotten into Scalain two thousand and ten, all right, and I'd learned it because I reallylike the tech and I was like, okay, I think there's something here. Well, that interest and getting into Scala and learning it in myspare time led to jobs from like, you know, five years later.That lasted me for several years doing scala commercially. You know, it wasa skill set that was, you know, not very available in the market andI had it because I put some time into it ahead of time andeven even with Coubernetti's now, you know, it's that skill set is highly desirablein the market and it has allowed me to make changes as I neededto, using that skill set. So I think you know, if you'reworking anywhere, you know, just always know, you know, kind ofbe on the watch out for the next trend or a trend and do somethingyou want to do with that and just you know, because sometimes you'll justneed to have to pivot, you you know, unexpectedly, and then beingprepared for those market changes and stuff like that I think is important. Soavoid complacency. Yes, stay hungry. Yes, yeah, that would bea very distinct way to say everything I just said in the last few minutes, all while you're your storytelling's better. You know, I'm just here to, you know, reinforce the idea through a number of words for those ofus that are attention deficit, like myself. So well, awesome, will carvel, thanks for the time today. I think we've we've covered a lotof interesting things and I think our listeners...

...will learn a thing or two youfrom our conversation. So thank you so much, sir. Well, thanksfor having me, Nick. Application modernization is sponsored by Red Hat, theworld's leading provider of enterprise open source solutions, including high performing Linux, cloud,container and COUBERNETTI's technologies. Thanks for listening to application modernization, a podcastfor high growth software companies. Don't forget to subscribe to the show on yourfavorite podcast player so you never miss an episode, and if you use applepodcasts, do us a favor and leave a quick rating by tapping the stars. Join US on the next episode to learn more about modernizing your infrastructure andapplications for growth. Until next time,.

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