Open Source Revolution: A Conversation w/ Carvel Baus

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Open source is used in way more things than people realize.

After all, with so much open source code available to power basic functionalities, it’s easier for developers to just plug it iRn and move on to other things that are more core to their business.

In an open source world, you can really do anything you want as long as the code is there.

In this episode, Carvel Baus, Senior Consultant & Architect at Shadow-Soft, explains the value of open source technology and interesting ways it’s being used in the industry today.

We discuss:

  • His early experiences using Unix and Java
  • Why he became fascinated with open source
  • Interesting use cases for OpenShift
  • Why data centers will be shifting to Arm technology
  • Advice for up-and-coming engineers

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You are listening to application modernization, a show that spotlights the forward thinking leaders of Highgro software companies. From scaling applications and accelerating time to market to avoiding expensive license and costs, we discuss how you can innovate with new technology and forward thinking processes and save some cash in the process. Let's get into it. Thanks for listening to the application Monertization podcasts presented by shadow soft. I'm your host, Nick Markarelli. Today we spoke to senior technical consultant Carbo boss on the shadows soft consulting team. Carvel's had a wide range of experience from, you know, working at low level technology, you know, down at the machine level, to get into software architecture, defense contracting, working for some of the most admired companies and open source, and we're lucky to have them on our team today. So we spend some time catching up, talking about tech trends, talking about some of the insights of the past and how that's influenced some of his decision making as an engineer. I think it's a really interesting conversation amongst friends and hopefully you, the listener, will really enjoy it and, as always, thanks to red half for supporting the application modernization podcast. Hey Carvel, thanks for joining us today. Excited to talk to you. Go Nick, thank thanks for having me. Good to be here, very good. So we've known each other a while, so this will be a fun conversation. Little bit a number of years at this point, but you've recently rejoined our team at chat USOFT and after making a couple of stops some really interesting places. So I thought I might be interesting to talk through some of that, some of that experience and some of the things you've done in the past. And you know, you've got a great general background and open source, so good fit for what we're doing here on the podcast. Yeah, be glad too. Well, yeah, there's a lot. I've done quite a few things. I'll see if I can see condense this in to the shorter version right. Well, I'll hope. I'll help guide you with that. So why don't? Why don't we? Why don't we let our listeners, are many, many hundreds of thousands of listeners hopefully here, a little bit about your background, maybe what got your start in, you know, in Tach and you know wherever you want to take us and we'll just dig in from there. Sure, sure, so I guess I got a computer engineering degree from NC State University and that's it. Wasn't a common degree. I don't know if that's more common now, but it's basically a hybrid between doing electrical engineering and then doing programming and like back when I lived in Rolla, if you wanted to do just peer program you went to you and see and you know you did. Oh, if you want to do different types of engineer, you went to see state. So I pick kind of in the middle of the road degree that would let me go either hardware or software, and ultimately it. You know, all my endeavors led me through the software path over hardware most of the time, so went there. Cool thing is one of my instructors. Some of the listeners may know them as a gentleman by the name of Marshall Brain and if you don't know him, he was guy who created how stuff works, that website that was a a sold to the discovery channel. Is Really Cool. Marshall's a great guy and I mean just a phenomenal instructor. I mean he really knew his stuff. I don't know that he can would have considered me a great student, but it was it was a certainly enjoy to have him as an instructor. So that was kind of cool. That's a that's a pretty cool experience when you know one of your professors is, you know, someone who's, you know, done something in industry and is wellknown. You don't always get that now you don't eat and you don't realize what you have until like, you know, down the road. Right now. It's very being a college student in the days like, you know, hey, he's just another instructor and he was very casual, kind of he wore blue jeans and, you know, just a button down shirt and he's just kind of your organic professor...

...type, you know, very, very personable. You know, just another normal guy there, but very smart, personable guy. So I remember the course being a lot of fun and it was hard and he certainly made his students work for their degree. So that was a good thing. Gotcha. All right. So NC state, which obviously has some interesting ties to run at in general, but we could probably talk about that later. No, sure, yeah, but yeah, tell us where you jump from there, I mean got in the industry, I assume. Yeah, yeah, and the industry actually got into industry walls at NC state. I joined their cooperative education program, which is you go and work for a company while you're a student, you know, so they get labor cheap and then you learn, you know, how to the industry really run. So my coop experience wasn't two different groups that IBM there in Research Triangle Park. My first one was performance analysis of IB in mainframe stuff. So I wrote code and WREX language, which most people don't know, and did that for a bit. And then I also worked in a hardware group testing device drivers that connected x at six computers into mainframes. So that was kind of cool. So, like you know, out of the gate I got into some really, you know, heavy duty industrial type stuff, and so that was a great experience. And during that time, you know, you know, I think you know everybody, every kid in high school or college order has a dream. You know, they plan out their career right. So I was like in high schools, like I'm going to work for IBM, I'm going to, you know, I get my degree, go work for IBM, I'm going to retire from my BM, I'll get a master's degree from Georgia Tech. I think one of those things actually happened. My degree from NC state. You know, while I was coopping, IBM went through. They're like four hundred thousand people and they went through. You know, it is kind of like that error where they were pulling back and they started just, you know, cutting loose people and the stuff. So they went from like four hundre of thousand people to two hundred thousand inside of a couple years. So I figured my bet there wasn't going to be all that great, but the experience itself was was really good. Gotcha. So you're doing work there and then what was your first, I guess, experience, you know, outside of the educational system, when maybe a kick start your career where I know you did some like federal contracting thing. Was that later or oh yeah, that was much lavorish later. There we go. Yeah, so research triangle park right outside of where and see state is. There was a lot of telephony stuff going on, hmm, like and of college interesting looking at degree or degrees, looking at jobs and stuff. You basically either worked on windows machines or you worked on UNIX. I mean that was all there was right like you're going one way or the other. So there's a lot of UNIX stuff going on and that just really interested me just from everything else I'd worked on, you know, in school. I was like, Oh yeah, UNIX is a really cool thing to get into, so let's let's let's jump into that real quick. So yeah, because you know, UNIX is, you know, predecessor to Linux and macoss and all that fun stuff that, you know, people have huge preferences around. So what what about working on a lit a UNIX platform, drove you compared to Windows? Well, that's a great question. You know something about the command line in you know that since I don't know, maybe it's you know, maybe I'm one of those people, but that sense of power you get from being on a type something and you know, make something happen right and instead of just like, you know, clicking and pointing it stuff, because I think at that time windows, Ninety five window windows one was like the stuff and then ninety five was coming out and, you know, it was just like okay, I could click the point at times where I can sit here and do really cool stuff on the command line and I think, you know, just the ability to explore and get lost in the command line just appealed to me. You know, it was just kind of a fun place to play. Yeah, that's interesting because I remember when windows three one came out, and we're boring younger people here probably, but I thought it was really cool because I had a you know, I hadn't IBM based like DOS system, like for our family computer,...

...and not everybody had a computer back then and it was I was used to, you know, booting up and, you know giving it a command to go to a directory and launch, you know, some horrible application like organ trail or a math calculator, you know, something something like that. You know, I remember when my Granddad, he was actually the first one to get into computers because he had a math degree from Penn state and he he bought one and then he somehow, I maybe programmed it, maybe it was off the shelf, but he built like an interface menu on top of doss so like if I wanted to launch some game, it would the computer would launch in that I'd Hit d you know, would launch me directly into the game. I don't remember what that was exactly, but I thought it was really cool and I didn't have it on mine. So it was way ahead of his time. Anyway, sounds like it. That's a little rabbit trail right there. But anyway, back to you. Yeah, so, yeah, UNIX was just kind of a fun place to play and, you know, pack then like my first real job, I guess, was that a company called Fujitsu, Fujitsu Network Communications, and I worked with suns spark systems, and this is really where I got to cut my teeth on UNIX itself, because, you know, Sun ran celayers, right, they're operating system in the piece of hardware I got to play with and take care of was this fault tolerant thing called a fault tolerance spark, you know, which was basically, you know, a fault tolerant blade server of Sun Hardware, and it was used to run a telco switch. And this is part of that telephony how I got into telephony. So is an ATM switch, not like you know the ATM where you get money out of, but asynchrogenous transfer mode, right, which was the thing back then that telecommunications was into. So, you know, I spent some time playing with that and then that moved me into my next Gig, which would have been at a company called TECLEC, which is now owned by Oracle, but techlic there weren't a household name, but basically, if you made a phone call, a piece of techlec hardware was doing something to help set up, tear down or make that phone call happen. Even in cellular. You know, they pretty much had like seventy percent of the market for that type of year and it was all UNIX or Linux base type things. And they're we're actually getting a programming boards directly. So some of my double lead degree was coming into play, you know, and all the switching stuff and all that. So that was really cool. I mean it's just, you know, like a kid in a candy shop kind of, you know, sitting there and I'm working right next to the hardware programming, which is something you don't really see a lot of today. You know, the industry is certainly changed a lot since that time. Gotcha. Yeah, that's that's funny. We could probably do an episode of this podcast just talking about all the old things that we intersected at different times, which would actually be kind of fun. Is One when I started out in Tach, you know, on the non engineering side, the sales and administrative side, the sun line before was perspout workle was actually the product line that I supported so well. Now I didn't know anything about the operating system or why it mattered or anything like that. I just knew that people wanted to buy these memory boards in these midrange sun servers and they would travel all over the world to come come by them. It was kind of crazy and they would sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars piece of supply. Yeah, around them. So it's kind of interesting. But it was was kind of interesting things I you know, you learned stuff as you get into these companies and you know code places and stuff and working for fugets. So I got to go to Japan for on a couple different trips and that was just that was really cool. You know, it's just a lot of fun. I was over there for several weeks and in Japan Fujitsu was basically the Sun Redistributor, but you wouldn't see sun on a box, you'd see Fujitsu same box, right, so they'd hite label it basically for the region. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. It was really cool. So, you...

...know, I got to play with all that stuff and because see the world is just a you know, great opportunity. You know, what a great place to start a career. You know, yeah, absolutely. So from there, if we we jump through the major milestones of the places you've been hopping, through the cool things that you've worked on, things like that. Yeah, so after figets, who came techlec, and they're the coolest stuff I work on. was actually doing telephony protocols, so I was working on selear spark boxes. Doing this was, you know, entering the IP telephony era, and so I was basically taking packets coming off the wire, doing something with them and then pushing them back out, you know, kind of converting signaling system messages and stuff like that. So that was very low level coding. You know, I was down and see working directly with the OS and system calls and all that, you know, and it's just, you know, a lot of fun. So that was tech LoC and then the long came thecom bust, and then basically, you know, all that work kind of dried up for a lot of people, including myself, and that's where I made a transition into defense contracting, which you mentioned earlier. Right. I moved on from Raleigh, ended up in the town where pretty much all there was there was defense contracting, and so for the next seven or eight years I would be, you know. You know defense contracting. You know, every job's about a year and maybe two if you're lucky, kind of thing, right. So, you know, you just go from contract to contract, working on various things, whatever you know there is at the time. And so that's where WHO's interesting is. I learned about Java when I was working in F U Jitsu because we were sunshop and one of the guys came back from a Sun Conference and he is man there's this cool new language out where you can basically just compile it once in it all run on anything. You can run it anywhere, right, you know the right wants run anywhere. Right. Thank you. You remember that? Way Back then? Yeah, and we were CC plus plus shop and you know, targeted compiling. It's like if you're on a this type of spark, you got to compile it, if you're on another box, you got to compile it again, you know, so that you know, there were some fascination about this ability to compile once and then take it and run it, run the jar anywhere, you know, kind of thing. So so in defense contractings where I really started getting in the Java, because that's at that point that's what everybody started was using at the time for Web APPs and you know, all that kind of stuff rights. So that was my foray into the Java world. Very different from CC plus plus, different type of mindset, different type of work. Thank Gotcha. And then you ended up eventually red hat at some point doing consulting and yeah, so, yeah, so there's a couple things in here. So defense contracting doing a lot of Java and I was getting bored with it because I was a sea guy, you know, doing CC plus plus. You know, you know Java. You know when it would blow up, you get to stack trace like a mile high, right and you got to go and fish through the one or two lines of you know, the figure out where it really went wrong, right, because there's all this stuff, right, you know, being CC plus plus. It blows up, you get this one line that's a segmentation fault and then that's it, you know, and you got to go hunt for it. So it was a very different world and I was, you know, I just kind of wasn't really into it. So I learned about this language called Scala, about mid career and defense contracting, which was another language to run on the JVM, and so I kind of got my teeth wet with that. tried to push it because I was getting bored with job and that didn't really go anywhere. And then that's about when, you know, I'd had enough. I decided to become a consultant and I joined a group called a Mentra, which was in the process of being acquired by Red Hat. So I became a red hat consultant through that association. Yeah, really, I mean I remember those days when the mentor was, you know, kind of merging into not merging there required, but you know, kind of combining into red at and the worldflow really expanded red hats ability to do services for customers and that was that was a very exciting time. And Open source, you...

...know, and I think that's I know you're a big proponent of open source. You talk about it all the time and I know you like to like to build things and you believe in the community. So you know through all that. Why don't you share what what you think is the most important thing about open source for you, like how it made an impact for you and why you're fascinated by it? Oh, you know, I think before I got an open source I didn't really understand it. Once I was in it, made a whole lot more sense. But I think, you know, Opportunity that open source provides is probably the biggest thing, because it's like, you know, in an open source world, you know, you can do really anything you want to. I mean the codes there, you can go work on anything. You don't have to be a part of this particular company. You know, if you know piece of software appeals to you, you just go pull the code, start working on it. You know, do a pull request, hopefully gets in, you know, where you get some comments and you know, you add some usefulness to that piece of code and you know, maybe start work on that project full time or something. But you can have ultimately, just pick and choose what you want to do, the things that you enjoy, and there's just having that ability and that opportunity, I think, is probably one of the greatest things open source provides for any development rights. It's actually more and that's it. That's interesting. That's a perspective I haven't heard before. So for you it's more about the called the artistic license to go apply by your thoughts and your creativity to something without having to be put on a committee and, you know, get approval from a manager. Open source allows you to just go attack whatever's out there and kind of, you know, fulfill that portion of creativity in you. Yeah, I mean you can blaze your own trail. There's not a company that's sitting there going, Oh, you can only work on this, if you can only work on that, and maybe that is the day job, right. I mean maybe you during the day you do X, Y Z, and hopefully you enjoy it, but at the end of the day you're probably doing it as a close hourse project and you know they're going to turn a big money on it and all that, and all that's find it well, I mean no issues with it, but you know, open sources where you can really no matter who you are or the level experience you have, you can do whatever you want. And obviously there may be a learning curve, there may be you know, you have to put in the time to become good at it, but the barrier to entry and open source is very low, you know, and for anyone I think that's a great thing. Yeah, sounds like desire. It's the barrier to entry. Yeah, it's kind of like music, yes, which I know, I know we share a common bonder on that, but you know, when you start playing music, not very good, you're just putting in time, right, you're learning to do things. So yeah, and when you become good enough you can join the band, right band, you know, and then you all share the common interest of pursuing that particular piece of music. So, yeah, I hadn't all of that parallel, but yes, it's very much like that. Yeah, that's that's the easiest parallel for me for sure. You know, I was twelve and all my friends were playing music and I was like, I want to do that. So I spent two years trying to learn how to play guitar and I never got to play with those guys, but I got to play with my own guys, other, other, other guys that were like, we started doing this a year ago too, and then, you know, it's born. Yeah, yess, open source software can be the same way. They can and you you may not. You may have an idea where it's going to lead. Like music, you know, hey, my friends, but you end up with a totally different group and it's great, you know, but you know that that ability to pursue it really lose you to the next level down the road. You just may not know exactly where they sure? Now, I know you're an Avid Guitar Player and Music Lover. Have you seen any part of you know, the concept of open source infiltrate the music industry from a gear software perspective or I figured you,...

...of all people, might know might be tracking to something like that. Yeah, there's stuff out there. I mean you have your commercial apps which you know for Daw thing like that. Those tend to be very well polished and you know, and if your goals to write music, you might lean towards that. You know, because open source stuff, you know, they can be any various stages right. But there's one piece in particular I got used to create a drum track for its this project called hydrogen and it's the hydrogen drum machine and you know, I found it download. It's done and CCPLUS class. I considered contributing it to it but just haven't found or made the time for that yet. But I created this drum track out of it and I couldn't create the drum track anywhere else. Just the way the hydrogen did what it did made it very easy and simple and it was like, Oh, this is awesome, I gotta corporate this into a song. You know, kind of think. So that has certainly been, you know, a musical aspect for open sources kicked in for me. Yeah, I've been surprised in the music industry it's taken a while for it to take off. I think, like the rest of consumerism, you know, I think we're heading into the golden age of of gear right now. There's just so much, so much unique and artistic view of we're nerding now a little bit and that's okay. Luckily I'm the host of this thing. But, Um, it's interesting to see how consumer gear, I mean even looking back to sound boards, I mean digital soundboards were like not really a thing fifteen years ago. This hall analog right, and if it was digital it was kind of not very reliable. You know, now everything's digital. A whole world's digital. So you know, it's interesting to see how software is really just made. That a huge change and everything that we do from hobbies to, you know, our refrigerator telling us it needs a filter and calling out to see song and then Samsung sends us a filter automatically because we clicked yes somewhere. So it's pretty well. Oh Yeah, yeah, open source is probably in a lot more stuff than people realize. I mean everything, because if there's basic functionality that you're trying to do that you have to do, say like the Samsung refrigerator right, like it's got to talk to a network somewhere. Well, there's a piece of open source code that will do that and rather than reinvent the wheel and provided the license works or it, you know, it just makes sense to go grab that piece of open source, you know, get it, make it work in the fridge and then move on and, you know, do this stuff that's cord of the business. No, totally, absolutely makes sense. Now everything's connected to everything, so I'm sure there's all types of open source stuff everywhere facilitating that. Yeah, so prior to you join in our team you had spent a number of years at red hat working on open shift, specifically in what we'd call, I guess, other architectures. Is that? Is that the right way to describe that? Multi architecture? Is the multi is the terminology. Thanks. Tell us a little bit about that, you know, whatever you can. Obviously. Oh sure, yeah, it was. That's an interesting group. They basically work with all the all of the red hat products for any non ex adsix architecture. So it could have been jaboss, could have been, you know, brms, anything. The goal of that team is to take, you know, existing thing that's known to run on you know, x Atsix, existing product, and make sure that it's available for other architectures. So some of the architectures we did with. A big one is the IBMZ, you know, traditionally called mainframe, but it's now referred to as Z, IBM power, and then more recently arm stuff for open shift specifically. So where I work mostly was open shift on IBMZ, occasionally on power, but mostly Z, and then tail end of my time there was on arm related endeavors, which was really cool. I got to do some eat stuff. Gotcha. Well, that's my I. You know, red hats always seem to have a kind of a path, an alternative path for you know, nonext six right like wells always run on power. That's that's been an offering for as...

...long as I remember. So we're going back, you know, twelve years at this point, but it's interesting to see, you know, the consideration of what that looks like for open shift. Right opens just this modern way to develop applications and have, you know, the new verrsual data center kind of, you know, in concepts. There's lots of ways, I think people describe it, but you know, being able to put it on, you know, on power or Z. it's kind of a interesting use case, probably one I don't understand very well that you do. Yeah, there's a couple different, you know, things I think customers are doing with it. One in particular is private cloud. You know, so if you have like a shop that has a Z, and we'll just talk about the Z for a second, you know, you have that skill sets. It's a very specific skill set and if you want to do a private cloud and house, it kind of makes sense to make use of the hardware in the skill sets you have. So open shift all the Z for a private internal cloud is, you know, it's just a sensible step forward and so you don't have to completely replace everything you know. And you know the Z's use typically and you know volume transaction processing and things like that, and open shift really brings another use case for it, especially to you know, there are shops out there that they have the Z, they love the Z. that's what they want to use. It's like hey, we want to do containers. How do we do this? On the Z. It's like, okay, well, open shift all the Z and you can do containers, you know, and stretching that a little bit further. You know, historically IBM mainframes, the eye systems and all that run cobal. You know, a lot of it's written in coball. So right, you know, without making a worrying thing too long, you know, hurt too bad. COBAL and a container is an interesting use case. It's not one I specifically worked with, but you know, those are some things that I know I be ams looking at doing. They've talked about it and some published articles and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, it's really marrying, you know, what some would consider the old world with the new, you know, and where those two worlds come together as a very interesting kind of place Gotchas. So so basically the cont the use case there, and I guess from a business perspective, is extending the life and skills of what you already have. Right, you've already you've already spent money on, you know, your IBMZ and you have people that have specific skills around that. So instead of ripping it out and completely retraining, it's like adding another layer of modernization. To what you could possibly be doing day to day. Yes, that be a good way to describe that. Yeah, I think so. And you know, and there's there's more. There's, you know, there's, as I mentioned, Z's are used for typically, if you look at like anything like a credit card transactions, historically that's been done on the main frame with cobal because that code has been proven, it works, it handles that type of thing very, you know, very well, very efficiently, very fast, and there's never really been a need to change that. So you know, anywhere where that type of scenario and you want to bring that more into the modern world, you know, containers on a Z would tend to make a lot of sense. Now, specifically how that will play out, you know, I don't know. I mean that's like a domain that I haven't dug deeply into, so I don't fully understand all those use cases, but I can certainly see, you know, you know, things happening there and then even extending some of the more specific z hardware, things like it's security capabilities, encryption, you know, all those things into the container level on the Z. You know, if you want to let leverage that in a container, then obviously you need the z you need. It's hardware, because I be M Z's are they're very well done, they're very robust. They they don't fail on you, you know, they're really designed not to. So I mean they just keep running. You know, it's kind of like a diesel engine. It just simply keep going. And so if you have that and you want to maintain those capabilities and bring containers of the picture, then you know, there's lots of opportunity of things that happen there. Gotcha. That's interesting. I'm learning a love learning new things, especially from you.

So I like I like to ask everybody this question. I'm sure you have a thoughtful response around this. What are some technology trends you're seeing out there right now, and what is one that you're really excited to watch evolve? Whether it succeeds or not doesn't really matter, but like what's speaking your interest today. The big one for me is arm, you know, because I've gotten play a little bit in that arena and I think, you know, I think arm is going to be, you know, maybe not specifically for the developer yet, but in the industry it's really going to shift the industry and shake things up. So if you look at like what's the best way to describe this? Well, help help our listeners out with like if they're not familiar with arm, can you give like a two sentence like this is what this is the high level like why they would care? Yeah, we'll do my best. So, yeah, arm is a is a company that licenses process or designs and so like the big thing in the news in the last year to is apple. There new in one chip as an arm chip, and so it was designed by arm. In then a company licenses it and makes it, builds the processor to arm specifications and arm rubber stamps at and all that and says yes, go forth and do great things with your new arm process. And kind of to give you an idea, I have h have like three boxes here at my desk, all right, three different ones. And so in the if we can get a little nerdy, sure, like my main COUBERNETTI's development boxes. This is my heavy lifter because it has a hundred and twenty eight gigs of Ram. So if I needed to spin up an open shift cluster and Kvm, I could do this on this box because I had the memory to do it. It has an Intel core. I seven seventy twenty X. it's like three point six GIGA hurts chip. It has eight cores, sixteen threads. So it's hyper threaded right, traditional, right until technology. It's like the pass mark CPU benchmark score on that things about Seventeenzero. All right, the higher numbers the better. So and I also have an am d rise and nine fifty nine hundred eighth X. it's the their nine series laptop chip. It's three point three GIGGA hurts right. It's benchmark is about twenty threezero. So faster than the I seven, right, right, bigger, much more horse power. It's also a core, sixteen threads. So here's an interesting thing. The Intel I seven is a hundred and forty watts of heat consumption or power to sipation. Right, takes a hundred forty Wat's roughly to run it. You know, however you want to call that, the AMD rising in my laptop is forty five watts. So it's like, hmm, like a fourth almost them, doing my math correctly, or maybe a third of the Intel's right. That seems significant, you know, and you'd absolutely expect that for laptop. It's also the faster processor. You know, it's newer, you know, smaller, you know, process eyes, all that kind of stuff. If you really get into a knee, into the geeky hardware stuff, estimated yearly running cost on the Intel is about twenty five dollars, you know, for that processor. If it's running, you have spent about twenty five bucks on it. The risings eight dollars, right, so lot, a lot cheaper, a lot faster. Right. So there's the difference. That the traditional lead six processes. Now I also have a macbook air and one which, you know, I'm doing this podcast through. So me too. Yeah, cool, I'm with you. Yeah, so that's specs on this little puppy, and this is where arm really starts to make sense. So it's in the CPU bench mark. It's the slowest of them. It's Fifteenzero, right, which is just a little bit less than the Intel at seventeen thousands three point two giga hurts. It's a core eight threads, not hyper threaded, right, right. It uses fifteen watts. Right, yeah, I see where you're going there. Yeah, there's there's an efficiency thing here. Yes, so it's about, you know, a little bit less than the Intel, but it uses a ten of the power to accomplish it. Yeah, that's okay.

Right. So that that's a good explanation, I think, for our audience. You know, why does that matter? Because I think unless you're willing to go to twenty five pages deep on the Internet, and he didn't. You know, maybe you have a similar cognitive ability as I do, which is mostly sales technical. I need someone to explain that to me. So right, that's really helpful. Here's here's where it really plays out. So as a developer, why would I care? I mean it's you know, it's these less power. So you know, I can watch movies for eight hours on my you know, my my back, but you know are I can only do that for two hours on the rising and my big box it. You know, it needs to be plugged in all the time. In the data center. If you look at a processor and let's assume that the M one is equivalent to the ice seven, you know they're close, right, they're not too far. All the ones using one ten the power consumption. Maybe we say one ten to cooling. You know all that. If you look at that for data center, that's really where arm makes the difference and you see Amazons. It's real dollars. Right. Yes, real doubt. Oh, the the cost, the yearly cost of the M one is two dollars, two and a half, compared to twenty five for the Intel. Yeah, that's that's kind of a big deal. So here's why the industry shift scale. Yeah, yeah, this is why the industry shifting, because it's a tenth to cost for a process or similar in performance to some equivalent Intel, you know, to run it. And so we're going to start seeing data centers really shifting over to having a lot more arm in them and it and companies can't keep up. Like I tried to buy when I was doing my k at Red Hat. I tried to buy an arm box that wasn't apple, because I want to put I couldn't do it because all the arm companies who are producing arm chips had shifted their focus entirely to dager center chip production. Right. So for the INCONSUMER, we won't see the arm chips. You know, you'll see it in the apple. We're going to start seeing it trickle into like what would traditionally be considered an Intel PC, like PC's right, not apple, right, laptops. You know, we'll start to see that here soon, but right now apple makes their own chips, so they can do whatever they want. They're going to be putting them out and they're really going to be ahead of the market. And and then once the data centers get caught up, then we'll start seeing arm chips, more so in laptops. You know. They're already in phones, you know. So all these worlds are going to start coming together and that's why arms going to be huge. It's just they're going to be everywhere, you know. So I'm excited about that just for, you know, everything it means for the ecosystem right now. I'm excited about it because I understand it. Yeah, thank you for that. So another fun one. What is it? What is a technology trend that you thought was going to change the world but then didn't hm in my I'll give you mine. Okay, I thought open stack was going to be a game changer. Well, interesting and for some, but you know, maybe the telco industry it was, but like if we're talking pervasily across technology, it was probably the most hyped thing I'd ever seen. That didn't quite materialize in the way we thought it would. So That's mine. But I was curious if you have one of those? I've kind of got two. So one one would have been arm. You know, it's just a matter when you ask the question, because apple with the M one was the shot heard around the world for the shift in the industry. So until apple did that, arm was kind of like the little processor that could write. Nobody was really paying a lot of tensions. It's great for a phone, you might have it in a chrome book, but putting it in a PC, yeah, you know, it's just not there. So apple did that in that really change that dynamic. The other one is this thing that you was called Soa. Okay, you know, it will be good. Yeah. So, I mean when I was in defense contracting, so was all the rage. I mean I I don't know how much money was dumped into soa and the promise of, you know,...

...in the service oriented architecture right and bring corporate stuff all under this, you know, and there's a lot of work around. That's a lot of what I did and you know, it just never really came to fruition. Think the vision that people had for so it was ultimately what Coubernetti's would be would become right. But so, you know, so it is one of those things where, you know, at least based on the hype, I was like, Oh, yeah, this is gonna you know, this is the stuff, man, didn't really happen. It was kind of a like a first iteration to what we call micro services today. Yeah, and how we man Inter that with Gubernetti's it was I remember that time and it was you know, I just I'm not sure organizations were just bought in on the concept yet, you know, like they're like it was the new hot thing, but they're like it seems hard, and that's, I think, most things in technology right now. Yeah, there's this huge expectation of, you know, this could change everything, but then you get down to, you know, building a plan and a team and allocating budget and you go, wow, it's probably easier just to do what we have been doing until somebody else produced this out, like Netflix or Google or, yeah, somebody bigger, right. So that's that's interesting. I wouldn't have guessed that, but given your background and having known you a wall, I probably should have. Should have known. Yeah, you know, I think all the I will call it hard infrastructure that was required made it difficult because, you know, you had to stand up servers you had to wire in the network, Cisco Switches, you know, what have you, and Coubernetti's is really virtual infrastructure right, and I mean it really made that whole thing a lot easier. Sure you know so I think that maybe the most significant difference there. So, finally, any advice you would have for young and upcoming engineers? You know, I it's a great question. You know, I think based on my experience, I'd say you really have to manage your career. You know, I think, like I mentioned earlier, or my goal and high school or college was go work for IBM, retire from my BM. You know, I had it all played out right, but then right if events happened, and that, you know, obviously didn't happen. You know, I've had throughout my career I've had to pivot a number of times, defense contracting especially, because contracts they just come and go for no real reason. You know, you you one day you have a job, next day you don't. Got To go fund a new contract, and so there's always that pivot you have to do. And so I'd say the part of managing your career is you have to be always kind of know what's next for you. Like I'd mentioned, I'd gotten into Scala in two thousand and ten, all right, and I'd learned it because I really like the tech and I was like, okay, I think there's something here. Well, that interest and getting into Scala and learning it in my spare time led to jobs from like, you know, five years later. That lasted me for several years doing scala commercially. You know, it was a skill set that was, you know, not very available in the market and I had it because I put some time into it ahead of time and even even with Coubernetti's now, you know, it's that skill set is highly desirable in the market and it has allowed me to make changes as I needed to, using that skill set. So I think you know, if you're working anywhere, you know, just always know, you know, kind of be on the watch out for the next trend or a trend and do something you want to do with that and just you know, because sometimes you'll just need to have to pivot, you you know, unexpectedly, and then being prepared for those market changes and stuff like that I think is important. So avoid complacency. Yes, stay hungry. Yes, yeah, that would be a very distinct way to say everything I just said in the last few minutes, all while you're your storytelling's better. You know, I'm just here to, you know, reinforce the idea through a number of words for those of us that are attention deficit, like myself. So well, awesome, will carvel, thanks for the time today. I think we've we've covered a lot of interesting things and I think our listeners...

...will learn a thing or two you from our conversation. So thank you so much, sir. Well, thanks for having me, Nick. Application modernization is sponsored by Red Hat, the world's leading provider of enterprise open source solutions, including high performing Linux, cloud, container and COUBERNETTI's technologies. Thanks for listening to application modernization, a podcast for high growth software companies. Don't forget to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast player so you never miss an episode, and if you use apple podcasts, do us a favor and leave a quick rating by tapping the stars. Join US on the next episode to learn more about modernizing your infrastructure and applications for growth. Until next time,.

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