Scaling Infrastructure to Support 100X Growth w/ Dan Drew

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Could you grow your product into 200 markets without needing hundreds of people to manage it? One company is on a mission to do just that. We're joined by Dan Drew, CTO at Didja, which created a product that lets customers record local broadcast TV on their mobile phones, tablets, or TVs.

Dan joins the show to discuss:

  • How Didja partners with legacy broadcasters to monetize and leverage their content
  • The #1 reason companies have trouble scaling
  • How to scale your software and your team without blowing out your costs

Want to hear more stories from high growth software companies? Subscribe to Application Modernization on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or check out our website.

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You are listening to applicationmodernization, a show that spotlights the forward thinking, leaders of HighGros software companies from scaling applications and accelerating time tomarket, to avoiding expensive license and costs. we discuss how you caninnovate with new technology and forward thinking processes and savesome cash in the process. Let's get into it today, we're speaking with Dan drewabout scaling infrastructure to support. Rapid Growth Dan drew a C to at Didjera company that is created a product called local B TV that lets customerswatch and record local broadcast V on their mobile phone tablet or TV. Inthis episode, we'll talk about scaling infrastructure and controlling costs.This is an exciting gross story with some great takeaways. Here we gowithout guests Dandre. I Dan n welcome to application modernization thanks forjoining us today. Thanks for having me so Dan tell us a little bit aboutyourself, your company Digar and the problem. You're solving for customers,sure yeah. So a little bit about myself. I've been building softwareprofessionally for a little over twenty five years, started out doingenterprise software at Microsoft, a large scale there for basicallybuilding software, that large companies used to the playing manage computersand selfward and their enterprises and then currently down at a tiny, tiny,tiny miniscule start up in silicon valley, doing video software and done everything in between so done.Video done enterprise done security, and you know all kinds of differentbusinesses even did that you're at my space, for those of you who, likeTrivia- and that was interesting, so done all kinds of things and seeing thewhole spectrum from Fars to small to get to bed and what to do and what notto do and a company did. You is here in the valley. So what we're doing is Imentioned we're a very small company and what we are aimed at is taking local broadcasttelevision and really trying to take that into sort of the modern age ofdigital TV. You know. So, if we think about as like Holo and sling TV, therereally hasn't been a successful attempt to take local broadcast television.Give it that kind of application where any user on any device can watch it inthe living room with the coffee shop bedroom right now you have to have anin town, the top of your house, which is you know, connected to your livingroom TV and that's how you watch over the EAR television. So that's whatwe're focused at and that benefits you know users, because he they get a bunchof content that you just don't have in those other APS, they're more focusedon like the Annes and treat traditional cable companies, and it also benefitsall these local television stations. That you know are a little behind,quite frankly, just because of the...

...industry they're in where they don'thave these APPS and they're, obviously not in the other leader raps, and theyalso don't have their own direct apps like the paramitas up or thing likethat. So you know they're really looking for an avenue to get theircontent out there. You know on new devices to new users and also do modernthings like at insertion, and you know, find more ways to monetize and liverercontent right, yeah. I've I've certainly experienced some of thesecompanies that are trying to solve for this in the past, and I bought a Rokuand tried to you know, get my local channels and I think one of them endedup. You know getting deleted from the APP tell us a bit about to the changingmarket, and what did you is doing? I know you spoke about. You know some biggrowth plants. Can you share with us? You know how the markets changing andwhat you're doing to solve this on a bigger scale. Yeah. Well I mean, Ithink part of it is just this realization.You know that broadcast channels need to you know, find more ways to reach their usersright. You know they can't stay tied to an intern. You know just thetraditional ways of viewing broadcast television, so t t that's where we'retrying to help, and then I think also, you know part of the reason you knowsome of those other solutions have struggled that ran into issues. Youknow where they violated either content rules, or you know, ranted to legalissues with the Austore or whatever, and this hasn't changed. Unfortunately,this is evolving, but it hasn't drastically changed, but there's a lotof complexity around content rights. You know, and it can be anything fromwhere you can show it when you can show it what device you can show at whattime of year, what phase of moon, whether or not as the third summersolstice of February. You know, there's a lot of complexity, about content andhow you can use it. So some of these, as have tried to just say, screw it. You know and just put that content outthere, and I you know that's where they run into problems. You know based onjust the essentially illegal or at least not approved in some way oranother. So, that's why you know we're trying to do everything by the bookwe're trying to work with all the major networks and make sure we sort allthose things out before we put in any content that we don't have approval forso it I mean it does mean that we can't currently get every channel in everymarket, but it also means that we are legal and we're not at risk of you knowsomeone pulling us or suing us or something like that, so it does addsome extra challenges for us on the business side, but we have goodrelationships with all these companies and were you know trying to workthrough these issues with them to come up with something, that's mutuallybeneficial right and we spoke prior to jumping online around your growth plant.You know when you came on board, you were in you know a couple of markets:You're now approaching fifteen markets in the US with plans to get to twohundred markets. So what are you like...

...from a infrastructure perspective? Youknow what are your top priorities when you consider you know growing thatsignificantly? Well, it's a case where you know every dollar and every line ofcode counts right. You can't scale any company or any business if you'retripping over your own complexity- and you know so a lot of what we've triedto do is just get all the fat out of the system. That includes self waree of you need to make surethat our software s is easy to use internally, not only as our users usingraps, but internally our software has to be to be used for us to manage. Youknow all those different markets. It has to be scalable in terms of size,but also in terms of human effort. Right ever did a lot of companies whereyou know their scale. Testing involves, you know three people good enough andthen, when you really start scaling the software becomes unmanageable. You know,and then you end up needing like hundreds of support people, you knowdealing with customer issues. You need lots of operations. People you need anetwork operation center to you know, make things sure stand up so a lot ofwhat we want to do, especially as a small company. You know that can't burnmoney on you know, resources or you know, people or technology was makingsure that our software is easy for our small Oporto to use and requires theleast amount of human intervention so that we can scale as a company like ifwe had tried to get to the number of markets we have now with what we hadwhen I started we'd be dead in the water right. There was just a lot ofhuman intervention, a lot of human configuration and management involvedin you know, keeping a particular market a lie. So a lot of the focus hasbeen building out our platform to make sure we make this as simple as possibleto what types of technologies platforms processes have you implemented to helpreduce that human effort and make it easier for your operators, a large partof it, was moving to container BAS system. So obviously they trend now,regardless, but absolutely critical for us where we can have things going upand down- and you know we know- one thing should mention- is we're a hybridmodel because we're dealing with local channels. We need a presence of somekind in every market so that we can receive those over the year channelsand then also because we're go fenced. You know the way TV markets work. Youcan on Thy Watch watch what's in your local market, so we also deliver. Youknow the content back locally right, so we don't send all the content to acentral location. Like you know, a lot of the other TV ATS do and thendisagree that through serums and all these other things we actually set uphard learn services in each market. In order to manage that in any sort ofsame way, we need to extract it. So...

...what we did is move from managingmachines directly to essentially each market is a compiute cluster withessentially managed service. That's in Amazon that is able to essentiallymanage all of those different clusters. But what that allows us to do isinstead of having to have a human go and decide. You know, I'm going to putthis channel on that and configure in whatever we can have a central systemsay: LOOK ALL RIGHT! We want to channel ex up figures out. Okay, I need thesecontainers. I need to go to that day or Senden and a couple minutes later, youknow that's just toughen running with nobody touching it just go into a Uidi,a few buts, so building that kind of a system a from an internal platformperspective and then using software like Amazon, a most services that areavailable and communities from continue management perspective. We'reabsolutely critical for us, as far as being able to skill he got it socuperet is, is a is a key part of this platform. You speak of as you're innovating anddeveloping this platform, like what's a big challenge that you've run into youknow in the last four years that you know really sort of stood out and I wasquite hard to self. As far as specific instance, I don't know that I wouldcall out any one thing. I mean a lot of what I've seen as far ascompanies having difficulty scaling is chalked down to just inexperience withscaling or not understanding the software and how to scale it either.Building your own software or using third party software, so you know giveyou one example is whenever I interview someone who says that use Cassandra,you know I'll ask them jokingly: Oh Yeah, how many times did you have torebuild that custer? Because everyone who tries to scale CASSANDRA INEVITABLYGETS IT wrong? The first half a dozen times right, simply from just notunderstanding how it works in terms of love, balancing and scaling. You know,and so everyone do spins it up, and it's like, Oh my God, it's great, andthen you had more data and more data and more data as like. Oh my God, it'sfalling down, you know. So it's one of those, I don't want tosay is home as a last start, but it's certainly a missing art and especially,as you know, a lot of these start ups are built by people that lack thatexperience. You know, just because of you know what their experience has been.So you know trying to build this off foritself. You know like a mention like focus on operable and monitoring andlogging. You know making it these you to diagnose and trouble shoot. You knowthese are things that tend to fall off the table. You know from a self orengineering perspective, you know, and so you gets deployed and then problemshappen and it's really hard to figure out what happened. It takes a lot ofmanual effort. You end up doing things like making your developers go on, callbecause they're, the only ones who...

...understand the system, which you knowin my opinion, means you didn't. Do it right right. You know, so you seecompanies, it's almost like when a you injured, a leg or something and themuscle starts growing a weird way. You know it starts seeing the company tryto compensate. You know for these issues as far as how the south waresbuilds- and you know you start seeing the sustained engineering tam grow andthe sales engineering can grow and the support to grow from the operationsteam on the nock and everything. So I think a lot of it is just. I thinkthere needs to be more focuses. You know, as these companies want to scale,they really need to focus on getting it right when they're small, because thereis a tendency to say: Oh we're small whom care is just build it, and youknow this affects not only the software scaling, but your costs as well right.It's like Oh, we'll just sign up for this, because it's easy and then youknow, six months later, you're like holy cally, got a ten thousand dollar amonth bill right, every CTS, West Nightmare, AH CGOO CF NCO right, I meanwhole sea level because you know that it directly impacts your burn rates, acompany, and then that goes into your hiring and what else you can spendmoney on. You know a lot of companies tend to cut corners, not realizing it'sgoing to bite them in the ass very very soon. You know they think how you knowwhat will matter until we grow to like two hundred people or five hundredpeople and I've been at companies where they started struggling with this. At fifty you know, and so you talk tocompanies we are over at twenty people were going to double, and that's wherea lot of startups you know are thinking it's like. Okay. Well, you need to younow start thinking had you know, this is where you really need to put yourbig boy pants on and make sure your self wore scales in your team scalesand you've got the right mentality in there and you're managing your cost,because all you need is one big deal that really makes you grow and reallyget your usage up and all your costs and all your scaling just can go outthe window. So that's why that's been such a high focus of lines and startingthe company is making sure that you know we can go to two hundred marketsand not be a twelve hundred person team to manage it yeah, and I want to justpull on one of the points you mentioned there around managing the costs andwhen we spoke prior to this call you you said engineers need to have abusiness hat, and you know what we discussed was that you know engineersneed to think about the business and think about the costs. Can you tell ushow you you know, maybe enable your engineers to think about the business abit more and consider costs and how some of their architecture decisionsmay impact those costs in the future yeah? Well, I mean there was a lot ofreasons. Engineers should be aware of the business I just from every aspectof self for engineering, but especially you know in a small company and startup where you're you know, you don't have money to burn. There tends to bewell. I either when you're starting you just sign up or something because it'sthere, you know and it's easy, but then...

...you don't really look at what the planis and what happens if you know what, where do we expect our numbers to besay a year from them? You know so really encouraging the engineer's, youknow is you're evaluating technologies. You know in different ways to solvethis problem. You know the easiest thing is not always the best thing youknow. Sometimes it's worth spending a month doing something that's harder,but then we don't have to rewrite and throw it out the window in six monthsright and so, for example, when I joined we had a number of contractswhere we were already paying for us. You know a large amount of moneymonthly and I did the math you know for where I expected Ouen members to be.You know, say a year from now you know based on how we were trending and itwas going to go up by an order of magnitude. You know we were potentiallyeven for one service going to be paying like a hundred k. A month for we now,you know just based on what we were throwing at it and what we were usingit for you know I really had to look at okay. What are we really doing? Whetherwhat are the other alternatives? And you know in some cases I was able totake those and even though it cost us on engineering time, I think one ofthem took us like three to four months to swap it out, which is not trivial,but when it came down the amount of money we saved. That was definitely theright call, and you know that is a business decision, not an engineeringdecision right. You know it's. The kind of thing go to th the CO and say: Look.We need to help development and do this. Otherwise, you know burn way. It'sgoing to be ridiculous, and obviously my case, my co, so heck yeah an do that.So you know those are. Definitely you know things that you have to keep inmind as an enjuring leader, and you know, your engineering team is everytime you make a technology to a decision. There's a cost behind thatnow, sometimes it's a monetary cost. Sometimes that is human cost. You knowmanage and learn how to use it, and things like that, so those things all have to becarefully evaluated again against your business dutes as well like, like Imentioned, you know a couple of services. We had we weren't even usingninety percent of the features, and it was costing a lot of money. So you knowfrom a business need it wasn't really what we needed and then from the costperspective it was. You know bad for us, so obviously you to re evaluate thoseones yeah. I think that is really interesting, because you know sometimesthere may be a perception that you know. Engineering leaders are out there sortof creating new features. You know driving value building products, butyou know there is another end of that. Stick where you can create value anddrive closs down by being smarter about. You know what you're using a d and someof the technologies that are being implemented. I like that story, a lot. I want topull on another thread that you mentioned just before around you knowexperience you know we're in a market right now, particularly you know, withsome of these innovative technologies like cabinet is where it's hard to findtalent. It s hard to keep talent, and...

...you know it's hard to find people withexperience right. So what are your thoughts around the market right nowand what are you doing to empower train up your team to be able to use some ofthese? You know modern technologies and in Your Business Yeah. Well, I marketwise. It is very challenging yea I'll generalize a little bit because it'syou know hard to get into details without, but I mean there is because of the popularity of theindustry. There has been a lot of flood of peopleinto it. You know- and you know, there's like de Camps- and you know allkinds of people try and get into the software industry. For you know manyreasons, and, and so it does mean, you have a lot of variety and theirexperience level, and it doesn't mean that those people are good or bad oranything. It just means you do have, I would say, more heavily weighted for myexperience of hiring on the lower experience level or if they have longerterms of experience, it's generally more limited. You know you don't see alot of people that have gone in depth into a lot of things right. So ifyou're looking for people that are really sort of in depth- and really youknow- have become experts on say something like cubist, you know that'sa very, very, very tiny pool right and the different companies also havedifferent ways of how they're organizing that you know. So. You havelike the whole psych reliability, engineer, Ole s where you know somecompanies, just don't even make the engineering team learn that it's likethat's an offis problem right and then you get into these similar cases whereengineers don't really understand how things work when it's deployed, andthen that affects the software you know. So I would almost expand engineers andto know, but the business. We also need to know about everything you know theyneed to understand how their stuff that's going to run in you know and howit operates, and even if they're not going to manage it directly m. So youknow the there's that aspect, and these are very a difficult technologies. Youknow that's one thing that has a changed it software is that you know alot of technologies coming out, but they're, certainly not getting anyeasier to. You learn how to use you know, and you know whether it's justcrappy documentation or just very, very complicated, to understand andconfigure correctly you know. So it's not really something where someone canjust hop in and you know do it well. You know you really need to spend quitea bit of time becoming an expert or something so again, finding people thathave had that opportunity to get that experience is very, very small pool of people. Sothat is definitely a challenge. You know, and you know, as a hiring managertrying to use the usual pools of candidates. I mean you can literallythrow out a hundred resumes before you have a phone screen with one you know,depending on what you're looking for. So that is definitely a challenge rightnow from you know my perspective in my team. You know I'm always looking foropportunities, and you know any manager...

...should be doing this for their team,for them to you know, go outside their wheel houseand learn new things and you'll. Obviously, you know work with youremployees to see what they want to wear. You know, don't just throw them thingsthey have no interest in, but certainly because we are a small company in thestart up. You know everyone kind of has to wear many haps. You know we don'thave a room for the person who says. I only want to do this and I refuse totouch anything else right. You know so, for example, you know my ios developerhas taken on broke and you know my android developer is taken on our webclient and you know- and this has all been great for them as far as learningnew technologies and broadening you know their experience and doing someoperational stuff and learning more about, for example, like ci CD, youknow using you, know, Jenkins and other systems like that and becoming moreexperts on that. Getting a better idea of the operational side and obviouslywere because we are a small team. You know every there is no hard wallbetween operations and Qa and development like you might see itbigger companies, so you know we're all talking we're all working together andjust my philosophy is you know engineers on their software. You knowyou don't get to say it's not your problem, just because you handed it offto deploy right. So you know I absolutely want them to understand thatthey need to know how this works, and you know you know you need to do better,locking and things like that. I you to make sure operations can knows how touse yourself or to play it and win to contact you and all s fails and thingslike that. So there is an owershot ask bet to that. That's interesting yeah,let's deep dive on that, so you're saying you know you want your your teamto own. It took us through a little bit more detail how they approach that.Well, I think it's all. As I mean, there's just a mindst. You know this isnot a dead problem versus a QA problem versus an ops problem. vers, you knowif TA is having trouble testing your software, that's your problem. Youwrote the software right. Five operations is having trouble, keepingyour service up. That's your problem. You wrote this software, so you knowthat ownership of you know you wrote it. You need to make sure that you've doneall the due diligence and you understand how it's going to be usedand you understand not just the engineering requirements, but you knowfirst and foremost, obviously, you've understood the end us of requirementsand the business requirements, but also are their operational requirement.Support Requirements Qa requires you know, for example, what you're doingautomation you need to make sure that you're at has. You know the necessarythings in it, so it can be driven by an automation from Lori, which is notsomething an engineer would normally do just by default right. So that needs tobe a collaborative effort between the QA team and the engineering came. Sothere's a lot of different parts of that and depending on which angleyou're coming at it. You know a different part of the problem, but atthe heart of it is really the person writing the software in the team wiringthe selfward. You know the support team has no ability to add better law right.The operations tame has no ability to...

...add better monitoring and health checksright. You know, you're responsible for that and the more that you can thinkabout that up front. Instead of realizing you've made a mess of it andthen trying to rectry it all afterwards. You know the better for you and thecompany because, instead of you having to come back and do the work threetimes, you've just done it the first time that you were building this offer.So you know the more engineers can have that mind set and that thought process.You know the less wasteful it is for the company to build this off ware andless wasteful. It is for the company to manage and maintain the software. Youknow from all the other groups that are interacted yeah. I love that approachso shifting gears. I want to talk to you about my space and we touched onthis prior to the show, and I love to hear your thoughts on you know how thatexperience was for you, and you know, maybe tied it to scaling and the topicof this podcast was there anything that you learnt there that you're nowapplying in your role today. Well, I mean, I think my space was interesting for me, for itwas my first web company, so I done primarily in a price software. Untilthen, you know running on desk stops and servers, and so that was part ofwhat attracted me. The position was, let me go see what this other sidelooks. Like I'm sure web development is totally different. So the first thing Ilearned is it's not it's not even remotely that different, but yeah Imean I guess I would say that I actually learned a lot of what I do forscaling and you know team management prior to my space and when I went intomy space expecting everything to be different and then even when I went tosmaller companies and expected everything that be different, I foundthat a lot of the stuff I learned about trying to run an already large groupwith an l ready, large product, ended up applying. It was, interestingly,some of the stuff that was missing from the process of my space. You know whereevery like, Oh yeah, we don't have to do that. You know we just skip that andyet almost every week they would trip over it. You know and to be a panic,and you know people like rolling back softer and whatever, so it was aninteresting, certainly learning experience to see how my skills from myprevious enterprise life applied to a different type of company on WebCompany, and obviously my space has just grown at the time. So I think theyare just grown about four hundred people and I just came from likeMicrosoft right, so that was a relatively small company to so. It wasinteresting to see how all of that applied- and you know all the stuffthat you know smaller companies tend to look at as large company overhead doneright is actually, you know, helps companies of every size you know,streamline and avoid. You know the problems that you everly start trippingover once you get past, you know very, very small proof of concept. I mean, ifyou're doing a website type of application. You know you can go fromhaving a few small sort of test users to having millions of users. You knowovernight right because there's no...

...berry to entry, not it's not like us,where you have to be in a certain Morkig like anybody in the US can go toyour website and use it right. You know, and so like, for example, I deployedone change which worked great and development while, as at my space, andthey deployed it and at a mute round the website to a hall because it you know because we're doinglike sixteen million requests or something a minute. You know- and youobviously I mean nobody yelled at me. It's like yeah. There was no way youcould possibly simulate that right and you know we fixed it real quickly, butyou know that's the type of scale you have to be planning for, because youknow one day: You're like you're, just cutting corners and everything's greatand the next thing you've got real users in real scale and now you've gota crap load, a tucket that to deal with. You know your database is falling overyour website falling over. You know, and now you have to waste a lot of timeand resources that you want to be using to build features and acquire newcustomers to just keep the site up. Yeah, interesting right. So having amentality, just helps you, you know, grow the business in general. Yeah, I'mhere in a common theme, is making sure that it's set up right. You know thefirst time and try not to cut any corners so that when you are preparingand when you are scaling, you don't run into any challenges or may be regrettaking those shortcuts yea. Well, I mean I will clarify. I mean there'ssuch a thing as what I call plan TECTA. I you know when you are trying to movefast, you, obviously you don't want to fall into where I'm going to planeverything perfectly for the next three years. You know, that's not really, I'mtrying to say you know like get it right, the first time, so you neverhave to touch this again. You know that's not possible and that's you knownot how you move fast as a company, but you can make intelligent. You knowshort cause which is different from just cutting corners without any realforethought. You know you can choose to not implement something that you don'tneed. Yet you know you can choose to design something in a way where youknow you're going to have to replace it ly or on and you've so abstractedthings out in a way that makes that easier. You know so there's a way toapproach it. That is better than just blindly. You know powering ahead andyou know building a mass that you have to completely delete or you end up. Youknow patching for the next two years, but you know again that just comes downto being mindful and intelligent about your decisions and where you cut andhow you chose to approach that yeah, okay, yeah. That makes a lot of sense.So what advice do you have for leaders at other high growthsoftware companies? If there's, you know one piece of advice that you couldpass on to others listening today. What would it be? I think pray would openfor putting I mean- and I also do you know- engineering leader and mentoringas well. This is probably the number one message that I end up trying to getacross is you know you can't afford to...

...be the engineering leader or theengineering team that just sits around waiting for others to tell you what todo. You need to understand the business you need to be part of the conversation,an Ye understand, not just a business and business model, but all parts ofthe business, because everything by the end of day comes down to engineeringand the software right, so the operations team, thesupport team, the sales team, all of those people depend on you, buildingthe right thing and building it. Well, you know so they can operate it, theycan support it and they can sell it right and the more that you know you asan engineering leader and as an engineering team, understand those things and understandthose conversations in a part of those conversations. You know the more valueyou are bringing to the company and the more the company is going to besuccessful right. So that to me is the number one thing: is you really need tohave your full business had on? You can't just wait for someone to tell youto implement feature x and why? Because that eventually will just break down yeah understand the business, it's thetopic of the session. So what one last question for you then say if I'm a aleader- and I want to help my team- understand the business more. Is theresomething tactical that I could do tomorrow to really enable my team towear their business HAP yeah? It depends on the side of the company, theOrganization of the company. If you have, for example, what you separateproduct teams were you in have, like you, know, planning meetings or thingslike that. That's usually where I encourage you know letting the team toattend those and be part of those and really hear the discussion. You know alot of engineering teams suffer from past down effect. You know where theyjust hear everything thord hand and they don't really understand theconversation and the different trade offs and things so any opportunity youcan give for your team to be a part of the discussion. You know like it, theirsales meetings like they don't have to attend everyone, because that's notsure quest ou si their time but giving them the opportunity to and the optionto attend. Those meetings are listening on those discussions. You know, Ireally give them a better appreciation for the thought process and you knowhear how that those decisions evolved. You know, hopefully, certainly the moresenior team members can contribute to those discussions as well. You know andrepresent you know, engineering as far as making those priority decisions, andyou know what do we work on? How long will it take you know, can we do it?Can we not do it things like that, so the more exposure you can give yourteam to that conversation, the better and you know, even in the past, downwhere it doesn't make sense for them to directly interface. You know with thesales team, or you know, whatever the product team, you know making sure thatthey have the forums to you know, ask those questions and really understandyou know, don't let them just sit in the corner and coat an...

...you know. Make me make them. You knowappreciate the bigger discussion and ask questions, and you know whateverelse you can do to get them to understand. What's going on around him,I love that tactical advice. Hey Dana, really appreciate you joiningapplication modernization today, thanks for sharing your thoughts. Yeah thanksfor I had a great time application. Modernization is sponsoredby Red Hat, the world's leading provider of enterprise, open sourcesolutions, including high performing Linux cloud container and Cubantestechnologies. Thanks for listening to application,modernization, a podcast for high growth software companies, don't forgetto subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast player, so you nevermiss an episode and if you use apple podcast, do us a favor and leave aquick rating by tapping the stars join us on the next episode to learn moreabout modernizing your infrastructure and applications for growth until nexttime.

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